I don't like the finance frat bro I see I'm already we're starting off on a bad foot here well do you like the rest of it owner of the SoCal hard-ons oh my God oh boy all right hot start all right well welcome welcome to the show Tim Parks.

Finance frat bro and owner of the SoCal hard-ons welcome that's one way to put it thanks Dan pleasure to be here boys by the way I thought your studio was much like more luxurious and bigger it's it's like wearing like a little dentist office here it's like 100 degrees leave that out yeah no it's good you're really just insulting the guys in the other.

Room yeah you started yeah you started out yeah it's because they like worked up a sweat in here they're like doing a workout it is sweltering um all right well so Tim owner of the the heartaches Major League pickleball investor I want to hear from you who are you what's kind of your your backstory we typically don't do this I feel like.

Most people know the guests but in my opinion you're somebody who's lesser known but very very well informed with everything that's going on and kind of the particular Pro pickleball landscape Tim is almost like an Illuminati figure behind the scenes running Pro pickleball yeah see all right that's the kind of introduction I was looking for now we're.

Getting somewhere so I'll I'll be brief because generally in podcasts when someone's doing the whole intro part I fast forward like five minutes it's never that interesting uh so yeah so I I work in finance uh I prefer um hedge fund portfolio manager it's a finance frat Pro but we can we can roll over synonyms at any rate um so the reason I.

Got into MLP and pickleball was was end of 2021 uh Richie who you know owner blqk like your former owner he uh we knew each other through the world of finance and he bought into MLP he was on the first original eight owners and after the first Austin event 2021 went pretty well the league was expanding from 8 to 12 teams and they basically.

Had the four teams kind of already sold right around the same time dundan bought the PPA some of those owners builds there's basically like a one week window where anyone who had the cash and was willing to wire like immediately with like no due diligence could buy a team and then shortly thereafter like garyvee some.

Others kind of like then you had to be a celebrity again so that was teams 12 through 16. for some real due diligence 8 through 12 were how we ended up with Tim and Rick and the hard-ons correct yeah exactly so um so yeah so so we bought in then and then you know I kind of wasn't really into I didn't really know what pickleball was I wasn't super.

Interested in it and then I watched the Austin event on live stream and I was like in the muck in the YouTube chat like just getting dirty then uh I went to Newport and I think like most people when you go to a live MLP event like you catch the bug and from there I was like all in like yeah here we are now I'm on a podcast with YouTube buffoons.

So what uh can you take us through really it was just Richie says hey we open up your checkbook I got a opportunity for you and like did you know much about pickle no no so I didn't know anything about pickleball um but I was so my life goal has always been to be the GM of a pro sports team yeah and you.

Know I've talked about this like I have very strange Heroes like Billy Bean Sam Hankey like these types of people I actually when I read I read Moneyball at age 13 and at 13 like most kids still want to be a pro athlete I decided I wanted to be a pro GM I actually thought it was cooler like you're the one like you're the Puppet Master you're.

Controlling the athletes you're the guy above the athletes and there's also like the book introduced me and all these concepts of like contrarian thinking like you know a real disdain for like conventional wisdom and going like like against the herd mentality um like using data to make objective decisions and really really like I know.

Other things too like the outsized uh role that like chants and Randomness can play in life and so I don't know all these ideas were like it was probably the most influential book in my life and it's not the greatest book I've ever read in terms of like literature but it's the most influential like form of my thinking from there on out so I.

Always want to be a GM so Richie was and you know but the goal is to be like the GM of like the Yankees or the Knicks not the hard eights but uh yeah the idea was like you can own a pro sports team and run it however you want it's kind of interesting and I was like it wasn't that much money split between five guys like even if this guy zero I get a.

Little bit of entertainment out of it it's worth it so yeah then I bought the team and you know it's gone like 12x in Valley in a year so I wish I bought a couple more teams Richie style yeah yeah how does it feel that Richie is a much better GM than you if your career aspirations has been to be a GM.

Insane you said I got one question I complete the fifth no I'm kidding but the thing with Richie is like he he and I think the exact same way and so like generally I think like we're kind of taking the same approach and number one he's gotten lucky I think he had Ben Johnson a team.

In the first event last year he got Paris Todd with like the last pick of the draft who like she was the cheat code dragged you along and you know rough and everyone else along carried me two victories yeah and then the Barrier Breakers he's done very well like you know they're undefeated and he has a great team there blqk this time I think.

They're okay I don't think they're like a top three team I know they came in second last event but we'll see um and then you know you have to remember last year the jackrabbits were the worst team in the league so like he had the best team last year and the worst team last year so he actually was kind of an average GM when you you look at his body.

Of work last year but isn't it isn't it a better strategy to play to play high risk yeah yeah yeah yeah especially last year where there was no downside like the difference between eighth place and 12th Place is it made no difference this year because there there are some Stakes to like becoming in the premiere of The.

Challenger League it changes your like acceptance of risk and volatility a little bit but now Richie I mean like there's nothing I can say he he's got five banners and I have zero banners so until it's funny I actually said after the last podcast I did that I wasn't going on another podcast until we would want it I called up to the big leagues.

Yeah yeah I do have in my pocket my uh definitive pickleball podcast rankings so I can give those out at some point I mean no time like the present let's hear it all right well so we were talking yesterday and uh it's made me think this is the this isn't my rankings this is the definitive pickleball podcast rankings because who.

Creates this this no me me but I am the most objective and we should have saved the [__] talking for after this but go ahead well here we are okay so number one it's actually not even a podcast it's nml because those guys in terms of like what they deliver in content and like like not afraid to sling it they're Far and Away the best okay the best.

Podcast though picklepod and you guys I'm actually silly jealous because you know Zayn you know those times you know this like after every event I send like a pretty long-winded like thoughtful like I really put a lot of effort into an email like detailing all these changes I would like to see in MLP I'm like I'll get a couple like hey.

Thanks for your thoughts like I don't think it really affects that much change you guys come on here you just talk a little [__] for an hour all of a sudden like the pickleball World jumps and so you've you've seen to and you have a good combination of like professional media guy with like the guy who kind of just like slings it and makes the other.

One right but I I know I respect that like I don't I don't respect anyone who doesn't have a little bit of anarchist in them and Zayn you clearly have that so I think that's why we uh we get along so anyway pickleball podcast number two It Feels Right Adam Stone rob nunnery you know stone is my boy he's my favorite.

Commenter uh you know you get the old guy kind of the experienced uh you know hats 87 and Rob yeah and Rob and Adam uh number three is pickleball studio with your two dear friends they uh you know obviously anything pal related they're they're the goats but I think they're kind of interesting because they have more of a uh and outside like.

They're enough in the pickleball world where they sort of like they have contacts who are Pros but they're also sometimes where they're like you don't quite understand what's going on behind the scenes and it's kind of interesting as someone who is perhaps behind the scenes to see their their perspective on things yeah and it kind of is a pretty.

Decently accurate depiction of of what the general public is is thinking they seem to know they have their finger on the pulse of like what do what do the general public want to know um and then obviously they're very paddle oriented yeah right so but it's good and I think one of my criteria too is like you have a good Rhythm like so.

You guys have a good Rhythm it's kind of like once a week or roughly like every five days whatever I know when it's coming out like it feels right they're they're more sporadic but I think that's an important criteria uh after them we have some newcomers the drop with Anna and Dylan and I think Dylan he's still kind of sleepwalking through these.

Episodes banana I think she uh he sleeps walk through his pickle yeah yeah no he um yeah he he is still working on the Charisma angle I think but Anna I love listening to her I think she's very insightful very smart and she's passionate she cares a lot about it I'm surprised her and James didn't do something together yeah James is on my.

List but he's a few spots down um okay so then after the drop so number five this is a little bit of an upset I think I think some people might not even know about it but tennis sucks yeah no that's good Travis right yeah so the great thing with these guys is he spots off too Travis bouts off for sure he slings it like like you and like Leia.

And some others but they're also like 20 30 minute episodes you can kind of pound them out one sitting which is an important thing but there's like no fluff like the first five minutes we had fluff Travis just gets on and starts and starts firing is it who's he on there with Graham Graham and then uh there's some other dude who like is kind of the.

Producer and he keeps it moving Rowan Rowan yeah he keeps it moving it's like 5 min a timer boom next topic so all right so after tennis sucks Rowan by the way works for the the dink full time oh it does yeah no I don't know that great dude very good yeah shout out nice to meet you so uh after tennis sucks I have the James ignanovic.

Show so the thing with James I think he makes a much better guest right now than he does host I get the sense he doesn't fully prepare as a host I'll have a couple of like like witty one-liners or like clever like little bits he wants to do yeah but he runs out of questions to ask about 15 minutes in and then he's just relying on you know he's kind of.

Like thinking on his feet I don't think he's nearly as you know professional yet as you guys are yeah you should see we have seven bullet points for today I see I see two pages on the laptop right you gotta stop looking yeah we're at that uh okay so then after that these guys pickle juice who I think they sort of just rebranded.

One issue them is they do like two podcasts a night and it's like impossible to keep up and also like some of the guests are pretty boring but I think uh yeah no those guys are reliable they just keep churning it out so number eight is the Tyson McGuffin show and I know some people like this yeah some people like this a lot like I.

Think Caitlyn just put on Twitter yesterday she's like this is the best Pokemon podcast and I don't know Tyson um he's a little bit of like a cliche machine to me he's kind of like he's he's sort of he's too well media trained I like a little more rawness a little more uh you know like you don't know.

Where things are gonna go so that's my issue with Tyson's but he does have pretty interesting to walk some of his watch some of his retro episodes okay maybe that he said some [__] all right yeah no he's sometimes I feel like it's it's yeah he's just cranking up the cliche machine he's the mayor a little bit right yeah and then uh last and.

Least is the inside MLP podcast which but like like I'm an MLP stakeholder right it's I'm an inveterate MLP partisan but this podcast uh yeah it's I mean my issue with it first of all it has three hosts which I think is too many generally and you have Casey and Michelle who are from volleyball backgrounds.

And then you have Tyson who's like Survivor none of these three people like pickleball is their full-time job like you guys are and certainly not MLP and so there are times where they're talking and it's like they don't really know that draft Works they don't even know what teams are named who's on what team and they're you know and it's almost.

Like there's like the whole point of it is to relate everything that happened in an MLP event back to Survivor or to some volleyball experience right it's like and there's too much inside joking and by the way this isn't like I've brought this up to Brooks and others like I think that podcast could could use a little work so yeah that's my list the.

Podcast rankings okay and if you didn't even make that list you are definitively [__] yeah it's not mine no no there are a couple uh one other thing I don't like ones that aren't on uh Spotify or like if I have to go to YouTube to watch it that's that's very annoying like I'm not.

Technologically savvy enough to like pause in the middle of a YouTube and then like go back and pick up where I left off like yeah if you're a YouTube only podcast you're gonna struggle on my rankings I will say YouTube premium is is nice you can play the videos when the screen is locked play music whatever it's worth the 8.99 per month or.

Whatever it is no ads worth it good to know um all right so you invested Richie's been your daddy for a couple years now how does MLP become a sustainable business good question so so I know I guess the first thing I'll say is like if pickleball is just a.

Passing fad that nothing else matters right like your business your business like it's all irrelevant the question is if pickleball is truly the most played sport in America if we have 35 to 50 million people playing it how best to monetize it and I I think realistically like if you're.

As bullish on the space as we are there's there's arguably a dozen billion dollar businesses embedded within the space um I mean I could probably I'll name like eight off the top of my head I think there's a few that I'm Gonna Keep secret for now I don't want to share but I think the obvious ones that are sort.

Of in the public space so the biggest is like the pro game right if if pickleball is the most played game in America there's a pretty good chance eventually it'll also be the most watched and I know people are skeptical of this they're like who would want to watch it and you know you can look at something like American football which like.

Essentially nobody plays but it's by far the most watched I think last year like 45 of the top 50 most TV watch TV shows were NFL games so that's a counter example but then we actually went and looked at like every single country and in every country essentially with very few exceptions the most played sport is also the most watched sport you go to.

Bangladesh it's cricket and they watch cricket you go to um Russia and it's like wrestling you go to China and it's ping pong actually basketball ping pong is number two so basically in every country it was either one or two there were a few like Ethiopia where like running is the most played sport and soccer is the most.

Watched but like running is the second most watched and so there's actually actually much more of a correlation than I thought when I first went into it so anyway so so like question between warship and participation exactly so the idea is like if there are 50 million I didn't think the correlated connection was that strong between participation.

And pro viewership are there any are there any counter examples like are there any sports that are really strong in participation that nobody watches because I need that you can think of I mean something the best one would be like lacrosse like when I was growing up like lacrosse was really really popular at least like the Northeast kind of.

Where I was growing up every kid I knew was playing across like people were like quitting baseball in droves to play lacrosse and the pro game and even like college lacrosse like didn't really take off like I think the upside to MLP is like significantly higher like the ceiling is way higher than it is to like pro lacrosse.

Um but the crazy thing is like you know now that I'm I'm a pro sports owner and GM I've started like sniffing around other Pro Sports and the team valuations in these other leagues are crazy like we like Rick and I get the look to like second second tier soccer team and the valuation was like 10x what like majorly pickleball teams are going for and I'm.

Not talking about MLS like League's below the MLS in the United States and like we're all like sports fans like I don't even know this league existed I certainly couldn't name one of the teams these teams are worth tens and tens of millions of dollars like I couldn't believe it like okay I think there's still a lot of room to go I know it's.

It's kind of tempting like we were talking about before we started like some of these owners are selling our off parts of their team and I understand the Temptation like you buy any asset and goes up a thousand percent in a year especially in a year where stocks are down 20 and crypto's down 40 all the stuff you're like I'm up.

10x on this it's probably like smart to take some chips off the table but I think looking at it objectively like the odds of it going 10x are still much higher than going back down to zero so so anyway so so the way to monetize the pro game is really sponsorships and meteorites and uh like this isn't really my area of expertise like but actually a.

Guy I was talking to about this who's really smart like you should probably have a mom one time was Jason Stein who if you know who he is he's like essentially LeBron's money guy he probably wouldn't describe himself that way but he manages like the hedge fund for the billionaire LeBron and also Draymond and a bunch of other guys and.

He really really understands like meteorites and TV deals and this stuff and he was telling me like the thing that that the NBA does really well it's actually not the most watched uh it's not even the second most watched like the actual live viewership numbers aren't amazing but the amount of traction they get on Twitter and social.

Media and it's 24 7 365. like the NBA draft is like bigger than like you know some other sort of like whatever NHL Stanley Cup games and that like the NBA is really really good at monetizing that and so you know we could probably talk later like PPA versus MLP like the live viewer stream are kind of the same it's like six.

Thousand seven thousand for the championship but the amount of like social media engagement for MLP versus a PPA is like 10x and so like that's the kind of thing that you can eventually monetize so so yeah like TV deals like sponsorships that's a billion dollar business if you have you know whatever 100 000 people live streaming it you.

Sell to Amazon you know web services whatever for 10 million a year 100 million a year or whatever you eventually get to like that's conceivably a billion dollar business um number two I would say is the amateur game and so this would be like minor league pickerball or like running.

Amateur tournaments if you have 50 million people playing and you get let's say 10 right 5 million model playing tournaments and you can get them to pay a couple hundred bucks a year to enter in various tournaments like you can get to 100 million dollars pretty quickly 100 million dollars.

A year in profit is valued roughly at a billion dollars right so you could and that the cool thing there is you don't need the live like if we're wrong in the live stream numbers never pick up and nobody ever watches the watch wants to watch the pro game you can still make a billion dollar business in pickleball just on the.

Amateur side and you know I think there's a lot of critiques of the PPA kind of tournament schedule how the generally amateur experience isn't that great it's double elimination you don't know when you're gonna be playing like there's a lot of sandbagging like there's all these sorts of issues um and so I think there's room for.

Something like minor league to come in and like this place the the amateur tournament circuit so that would be my second uh the third I would say is is like gambling and you know some of these are correlated obviously like if you have a million people watching then you're probably gonna make a lot more money from the gambling side because.

It's it's a function of how many people are watching and betting um I would say and then there's like there's other stuff too there's like like duper itself if the tournaments are worth if if you need a duper to play in A Minor League event and the minor league event is clearly the superior amateur.

Experience well like this now gives people a reason to send up to duper and like we all probably have golf handicaps like I don't even know what to pay 50 or 100 bucks a year for golf handicap again if you have two million people who play pay 50 bucks a year for a golf handicap right that's 100 million a year in.

Profit again that alone is a billion dollar business you don't need anything about sponsorships or live viewers or like that alone is a billion dollar business um so yeah Major League minor league gambling duper like the rating system itself and then you start getting into like the answer Investments so like.

At some point there could be like an MLP like Venture Capital arm right where we invest in stuff like the dink like by the way I don't know in terms of like Venture Capital investing I don't know if Thomas ever told you the story so I he's the only guy I've ever invested like in his company and then a month later he sent me the money back he's.

Like I don't want your money like your money's no good here I guess uh that's how well he was doing but yeah he was like Hey I'm raising money for for the Dank like dude this sounds good like I'm in for 100k I got Rick and and another guy and another one of our owners um like Greg and Kevin got those guys involved and then he's like actually Tim.

I don't need your money and sent it back so yeah but generally like there's a spot I think for MLP or maybe it's a separate fund kind of spun out from outside of MLP but to invest in these sorts of the Dank and any kind of you know startup in the space and again a 50 like this is kind of the Mark Zuckerberg idea like if a.

Billion people are using your product like a billion times any number is a huge number it's kind of the same thing with pickleball if 50 million people are playing like do you only need to monetize like you know like if we're selling balls right this could be another like kind of MLP Investments we're selling balls like an.

MLP ball and again if you want to play in minor league or major league and you're only allowed to use the the MLP ball you're gonna buy that yeah every amateur in the country buys that ball right so that would be a dollar amount much larger than any sponsorship from Dura or Franklin or whatever right totally totally people buy Balls by the.

Packs of 50 and it's like that's that's the official ball that everyone uses so like that could be one right and then you know then there's stuff like uh like real estate I mean MLP could get in the real estate game where like again there's this enormous mismatch in supply and demand right now.

Between quartz and players I think the ratio it's like 110 to one like 110 players for every one core right now and if the the game is outpacing the amateur like growth is outpacing the court growth right now so if MLP wants to do something where you're like let's go you know build indoor facilities like we'll go to sort of the outskirts of.

Austin or San Antonio or wherever you know North Jersey and you find really cheap real estate because commercial real estate's under pressure from you know covet kind of killed real estate like everyone just buys stuff on Amazon and the regional banking crisis now and interest rates are much higher so you can kind of scoop up cheap real estate.

All of a sudden you're you're like all right we're now like a real estate fund and so I think like that could be a billion dollar business right so there's like a lot of you know if you play poker like there's a lot of outs like there's a lot of ways you can win the hand and I think that's what's interesting at the same time you also want to stay focused.

And make sure like you're not getting so distracted and you know I think one one approach that I've kind of proposed and we've sort of talked about briefly is like you have a czar like someone in charge of each one right so like let's say we hire Thomas Shields to be the Zara like like we want to get our live stream numbers to 50K by San Clemente in.

December all right Thomas we hire you here's the deal if you get us to 50K with no Bots like a genuine 50k you get a half million dollar bonus if you don't you're fired and we hire a newsr next year right and it's like someone who's really clearly accountable someone who like has a very clear goal and if it doesn't work we know who to.

Blame right I don't like when there's like committees and it's kind of dispersing the the responsibility well it's okay so I'm gonna stop you because everything you're talking about is sort of based on the assumption that Majors like pickleball would have some cash to disperse how do we get Major League pickleball to.

The point where it has cash sitting on the sidelines that it could invest in real estate in manufacturing in events in amateur pickleball in these other things I mean that's that's a real question right yeah I mean so it's actually it's actually simpler you can just raise money right you can just go to the.

Market and do a raise and just we're going to raise 100 million dollars to invest in every startup in the pickleball space yeah I do it all the time yeah and it's it's not it's not uh an impossible question now of course you're diluting your existing shareholders and all those kinds of stuff too but raising money like I think.

We have a pretty good story to sell and it's it's possible to do the thing that MLP has done thus far to raise money is just sell more teams right it's like hey we're gonna sell team for six million bucks like sell two more teams that's 12 million in our kitty instantly without much more like increase in cost right there's already so many investors and so.

Much Capital injected that you need a pretty huge outcome before I would assume that the current investors are willing to take on more investors to go do these other things yeah but it's like focus on the the job at hand yeah but I mean this is the nature of startup investing is like let's say we we value MLP At 300 million dollars which is a.

Lot I agree if you if you model it on a cash flow flow basis right now right you're an investment banker like you do the discounted cash flow model and you're like there's no way I can justify MLP evaluation of 300 million right there's no chance I mean the league is not profitable right now right so but at the same time Amazon wasn't profitable.

For the first 10 years right like Tesla wasn't profitable like this happens all the time Uber is not profitable and you're like well why is it valued at 300 million like because there's a 10 chance it's one day worth 10 billion dollars if all of those things I just listed become their own independent billion dollar businesses like you have duper embedded.

You have minor league you have college pickleball all this stuff is embedded right if one of those becomes a billion if there's a 30 chance one of those becomes a billion dollar business major league capital is essentially a VC fund at this point yeah and no we might not do that because that may be too much.

Like maybe Steve Kuhn and I spin out our own Venture Capital fund that's you know outside but I think at the moment we would like to keep everything within MLP and because that becomes a mode right like we haven't really talked about it but there's like there's other competing Pro tours and if we become so big and so.

Powerful and have so much money that we're like you just have like we are the shark who's just swallowing all the minnows like that alone is a moat to competition if we separate everything out and you have duper and you have college and minor league in a major league then like there's room for like you know competition to come in and kind.

Of use certain pieces so like you know any business I mean this is Warren Buffett's like number one idea is like invest in businesses that have a mode around it and I think if we become the elephant in the room who we have the most famous owners the richest owners the most powerful and we have the best product like we haven't really talked.

About the actual product but I think most people agree like MLP is clearly more compelling to watch and more fun to play in than it's like you've kind of established a moat and then it's pretty easy to raise money when you have a moat and you have you know all these potential billion dollar businesses so what's what's a thought given to so.

You sort of said imagine if I was to oversee specifically live stream viewership how would I get that to 50K my answer to you would be I would look at right now foreign markets I would look at India I would look at Asia is there thought given to that are there conversations happening around exploring.

Kind of foreign markets not a ton I mean it's it's funny we uh so you know we wanted to be the Las Vegas heartaches obviously it's a natural connection and of course like every team was given their first or second choice for their City we got our like eighth Choice like even on the call when they were announcing the teams they're like yeah.

Don't worry everyone you got your first second choice except for one and then we got like you know so we wanted New York we wanted La we wanted Vegas we wanted Miami like these were all taken by more famous you know important people apparently so then I was like screw it let's just be the Monte Carlo Harley it's let's go International and like.

What's more like that's even like Vegas like you know a more classier more elegant version of Vegas so we kind of joked about that I mean you had Cabo for like a minute there were there were a pro team too um but I think generally like the idea is like let's State let's go where the amateur sport is is growing and right.

Now that's still within the us but I've talked with um this Italian guy who's really big in padell and he has a padel company and also um a pickleball Paddle Company and you know like I don't really want like in terms of businesses that don't have a moat right now it's paddles as you know you just started your own like there's a new Paddle Company every.

Single day and I think that's not an interesting business but the interesting part was he was like I could be the first guy in Italy right now like taking so there is some conversation to it but I think generally like we're open to growth from wherever I think padell did a really interesting job of doing just that with their viewership numbers I.

Remember like it was probably 18 months ago my Instagram Facebook feeds were all padel YouTube suggestions everything it seems to have kind of fallen off a little bit but that sport really burst onto the scene here even when there was nowhere to even play I remember seeing that stuff I'm like okay I honestly I think that's because the algorithms were.

Confused they hadn't figured out how to identify pickleball and suggested to you yet and you followed all these I'm serious you followed all the incredible accounts which put you in this grouping of essentially Racket and paddle Sports and so what do they suggest tennis Highlights padel Highlights similar highlights because they hadn't really.

Figured out the pickleball side yet but like for me personally because I was the same now if I look at my like the Instagram's equivalent of for you I'm now seeing more consistently pickleball it's like yeah they've figured out how to optimize algorithms what the hell is this yeah I think it was just so early like there was just no there was no I.

Mean social media the other huge problem with padel that is this ceiling on its growth is the courts are very expensive right and so I don't think that has nearly the potential yeah the great thing of pickleball is the barrier to entry is super super low super cheap like you can you can show up at a court with.

Nothing and you know people who have extra balls and patents so that's why I think yeah I generally have no interest investing in Fidel because it doesn't have the explosive upside from here that I think pickleball I do think India is starting to really get some traction though by the way have you seen this guy's like the the Indian Ben Johns.

They take it way more seriously like he wins the the you the Indian open or whatever he's like crying he's like people are like rushing that he's hugging everybody like everybody's super passionate and it's like there's not even that many people watching but like the passion is there and I've started to see more pockets in India because like.

They follow us on social media they interact with us and I'm just starting to see it more and more so I do think there is some some growth abroad yeah abroad but it's it's just several years behind where we're at yeah right for sure it's earlier up on uh like that hockey stick curve right yeah no I mean I'm not a media guy um this is.

Like your space I mean this is what you do and this is what exactly why you go and hire Azar like No One's Gonna Be the expert in every single category like men on mine is probably expertise is like gambling right it's like let me focus on gambling then you hire someone else to do the media stuff like I have no clue on how.

To how to get live stream numbers up to 50K all right well let's talk about gambling if you're up for it sure yeah um what's what's the you know Connor with the PPA has been talking about gambling for a while gambling has been something that's been spoken about probably for a year again it's why this podcast exists yeah.

Okay we explained that do you have any attention on the podcast I I heard I I got it yeah because you could get a great gambling sponsor in the draft can just want to pay you a lot of money no so I mean gambling like I uh you know our team's name the Hardy it's obviously we are we're gamblers at heart and that's kind of like what what got us.

Here was like my connection with Richie we would we bonded over these like Vegas trips we were Gamble and stuff like I I've been gambling at sports like my entire life like all through college like I like co-wrote a book on sports betting in college with a professional Gambler and a notary professor and like all this stuff so like I'm like super.

Casually yeah super super um but when I was betting on sports in college it was like I had to wire money or no not any wire like Western Union and MoneyGram like no one my age knows how to use MoneyGram in a Western Union except for me because I would have to send money to like Costa Rica or.

Nicaragua where these like illegal offshore betting sets were and like that was how I'd bet so I mean every platform every exchange like internationally like I've used them all so like I kind of understand and and so anyways that's my you know sort of background of gambling um the thing with gambling is like to me background to me wrote a book and he was.

A degenerate Gambler yeah yeah of course yeah yeah and I guarantee you Richie is going to comment in the YouTube comments being like Oh you know I'm up so much money gambling against him which is is fine but the point is um gambling to me it's it's a mechanism to get viewers right again if you have a hundred thousand viewers absolutely.

And so I think there is some dispute right now within MLP on which direction we want to go in gambling and by the way like it's moving way too slow for me and I'm on the gambling committee like it's still moving too slow like there's no reason to not have betting lines up for the next MLP in my eyes.

Um but there's you know certain things that like take a little more time than I thought they should um but the thing to me is like well should we try to negotiate and play hardball with these gambling companies and be like we want a percent of the cut or so like there's kind of like two models one is like you get a percent of.

The take or you just get like a flat fee it's like 10 bucks for every line you put up something like that I'm like why do we need anything put it up for free just have MLP lines on every single site for free in fact like you'd almost pay them to do it like hey DraftKings you put MLP on the front page with a link to our live stream like so to me gambling.

Is just it's a purely a mechanism to get viewers and once you get the viewers Then There are a million ways to monetize that yeah I think we're being a little bit greedy up front and trying to like monetize the gambling right away and the fact is I've heard exactly that from gambling insiders yeah right yeah I mean I I would love to talk to you more.

About this yeah and I so I think to me there's there's still a little bit of disagreement on like which direction to go I don't think we should use gambling itself as a cash Revenue stream right now I think everything like to me everything is sort of in terms of MLP itself the product everything is irrelevant if we don't get the live.

Stream numbers up everything should be focused on that and and so sometimes I do think we get away from that a little bit and we lose focus and you know oh you know we were 4 000 last year an hour six thousand we're up 50 like 6 000 right like that's that's like you have some guys like you know bar stool like a guy's opening boxes and he has a hundred.

Thousand live viewers right and it's like it's still a long way to go so I think um gambling to me is a mechanism to to get live viewers and it's it's moving a little bit too slow but we are working is the is the main Revenue line from any other sport any other professional sport am I wrong well it justifies all the all the.

Sponsorships and the movies right sure because you have eyeballs you can get sponsors you can sell ads you can do all that stuff right the TV rights for for football is far more than if they sold out every single game for a year for sure right for sure I mean it's pretty crazy like even a lot of pro teams bear like like I think Steve Cohen said he's.

Like barely making any money on the Mets and that's with a huge mini deal with you know obviously the gate and the revenue and beer sales and merchandise and all that but like obviously he's playing paying the players a lot of money but I mean it's like you need all of that stuff to even become close to profitable and so yeah I mean I think.

Um yeah gambling it's it's for sure coming there's no like I think there's a little bit in the very beginning of like kind of like a moral opposition to it uh which like I don't think well can you explain like from argue the other side for us like the the moral side of things why why would it be immoral to bet on a on a pickleball match.

Are there certain things that pickleball needs to work on before betting can be viable or you think it's viable right now I realized that was like seven questions yeah no so the viability so so there's two parts I think one is like you have okay so the match fixing is the obvious concern and this is a big deal in like you know Russian women's tennis.

Or whatever like these other like really really small markets where the prize pool if I could bet 100 000 on a match and I could pay each of the players all eight players on the court five thousand each right like I would clearly do that and you guys would probably do that because you're like we're gonna lose one match but that's.

Like matching our entire take for the entire weekend um so what you have to do I mean the solution to this is pretty easy you just have the limits the most you can bet is like 250 bucks right so now in a per per better yeah and there's ways that they like of course like and by the way I used to do this like because I would bet.

On these like really obscure markets or props and open like 10 different accounts but there's ways they catch you pretty quickly for doing that so yeah that's so the thing is if I can only bet 200 bucks on a game well like then I don't have enough profit to pay you guys to fix it right I'm gonna offer you 10 bucks you're not gonna fix a match.

Um and so I think the max fit the the the the match fixing stuff is like not that big of a deal like I think that's pretty easy solution then there's like well people are using legal paddles and steroids and all that other kind of stuff I also think that's a bit overblown if the most you can bet on a match is 200 bucks.

Like that shouldn't be a huge hold up like whether someone's on Adderall or not like that people are using steroids in baseball and football and every other Sport and there's still plenty of gambling um so that's kind of the one side is like the Integrity side is what they call it.

That stuff I'm like pretty dismissive of like to me that we should just be moving fast and looking through that the other side is like well I suppose if you're making a bet and somebody's been trending in a positive way and maybe they like look like they're unadder all their steroids or their paddle sounds delaminated that'd probably just be.

Priced into whatever that is is going on their line would be at a different spot or or whatever like it's I don't know somebody being on steroids I don't know if it changes anything from a a betting perspective does it no I mean you're more likely to probably bet on that person they're probably going to be right but that'll be reflective in line.

Right because they're they're past performance is like what is dictating what the spread is and so it's like I mean this comes up with gambling all the time like my mom like she she hates it I gamble and now obviously it's been a losing battle it's 15 years later but she'd be like well how could you bet on this team like you don't know if the.

Quarterback broke up with his girlfriend last night and he might be like really depressed and play poorly because of course I don't know that there's the equal chance the other team's quarterback broke up with his girlfriend last night so it's like in the long run that stuff evens out so yes there's a chance I'm betting against someone who's.

On steroids it's just as likely embedding on them and if this is where like the imperfect information as long as there's not inside information right if it's one guy in China betting against another guy in China and neither of them know who's on steroids it's pretty irrelevant actually um but yeah so so that's like one side.

And then in terms of the moral opposition the one thing I heard was like well you know aren't we doing like a terrible thing we're getting people addicted to sports betting which like you know could ruin lives my answer is like number one like people are adults that are yeah first of all right the libertarian argument is.

Like whatever you're a grown person you can do with your money what you want the other one is like sports betting is totally legalized in this country like 15 years ago when I was betting with illegal bookies it was much harder like and now everyone has access every single kid there's non-stop DraftKings FanDuel ads on TV like.

Everyone I know has and sports betting app on their phone so it's the idea that they're going to become addicted to gambling because all of a sudden they can bet on MLP is crazy like MLP will not be the thing anyone who's betting an MLP I promise you also bets on everything else so it's like we are not adding any new addicts to the the.

Sum of of you know Global gambling addicts it's interesting and I think one of the big arguments against something like a Libertarian argument like legalizing drugs or legalizing gambling is externalities and what externality is there to you wasting your money yeah it's like you.

Know if you're like taking away your kids Christmas presents and you have to pull them out of school like because you lost all your money I mean there are negative externalities to just gambling but like I don't think it's MLP I don't think we have the power to stop it even if we wanted to right and and then it's like I.

Don't really think you know we're in the business of trying to create a business and if gambling is a way that we can get people to do it and the whole world is gambling to begin with feels ridiculous to like you know not to bring up another topic but it's like it's it's so naive and kind of immature and like almost like.

Mickey Mouse of us to be like oh you know we're the moral the more uh the Paragon of like virtue here and like you know I think you kind of know where what I'm alluding to like the queen Donna letter where it's like the sport the sport needs to grow up pickleball I think ironically grow up in the other direction like let's be more.

Like everyone else right like let's not be this like this like you know Kumbaya like a little rec league for pro players where all of a sudden like you know where it's like there are times I walk around these Vents and it still feels a little bit like a little league baseball tournament right and much more than a pro sporting event and I think the idea.

That like we're gonna abstain from gambling because you know where this Paragon of virtue is like pretty ridiculous are there any sports that are abstained from gambling right now any any like legit Sports no I mean not that I can think of I mean even the Olympics which are theoretically amateur sports you can bet on.

Yeah I mean you could argue that it's irresponsible not to get into betting right just from it if we want to use the technical term from a fiduciary stamp 100 yeah you know of course yeah it's I don't want it like we already spent too much time talking about it it's so ridiculous to even consider not gambling.

That like it's the idea is like what we should spend our time on is like how do we maximize the gambling eyeballs and revenue and all that stuff gotcha well you mentioned Queen Donna what are your what are your thoughts on that yeah I thought I I hated both of your guys takes I hate it I hated the pigs so let me.

Clear let's clarify what what were our takes I think my take was just like I feel bad for Donna because Donna seems like a sweet lady who loves pickleball yeah yeah that's precisely your takes were sharmin soft and what wait wait what was what was Zayn's opinion I don't know it's pretty similar would I yeah it was pretty similar it was like I guess.

Maybe we didn't maybe do you have more information no I look we all read the same letter and I was laughing hysterically in fact I found her so amusing that I followed her even though it's her only article ever on medium I followed her because I hope the case I hope she writes more because she is electric she's like she.

Was very funny but I mean she has a good writing style she did what if we got her on the ml inside MLP podcast yeah let's see then like that podcast can't get worse so she no I was joking I was actually joking with some of my friends I was like I wonder what Donna's duper is she might have a spot on our minor league.

Team because she's you know brings the leadership and the veteran kind of yeah that's what we need we need that that stalwart uh you know the the moral virtue so anyway so the point that I think I was making you can oversee the gambling yeah I mean look can you none of us know who Don is what do you think she thinks about rally scoring let alone.

Like a shot clock like I can just picture her lying in bed that night when those those people came home late you know at 2 A.M made a little bit of noise she's just like clutching her pearls lying in bed being like these kids and they're rally scoring and they're you know they're they're turning on the lights at 2 30 a.m like I mean what like.

The idea that this is like a scandal like a couple Pros came home late at night they made a little bit of noise uh one of them peed outside which those of us who haven't enjoyed a good nature P like you know you can't have to think there's something you can cast the first stone yeah exactly you could argue he's being responsible he didn't want to get.

Some dribbles you know it's just making sure it was it was you know outside I have heard an argument for that like is this so this is an interesting like moral dilemma the guy needs to take a piss in the middle of the night and he's in a foreign home plausibly right he doesn't want to go opening up random doors stumbling into somebody's room.

That he's not supposed to maybe peeing outside in the planter was the responsible thing to do well I agree and that's kind of when and if I go and told my friends like oh my God there's this crazy Scandal rocking the pickleball world like what is it was it like you know Ray Lewis like uh someone was shot outside a nightclub was there like a DUI.

Was there you know these other sports have like real scandals it's like no couple Pros made a little bit of noise and one peed outside like but they didn't pee on the couch like they didn't pee in the closet they didn't steal anything they didn't break any anything there's no permanent damage they made a little bit of noise and one guy peed.

Outside it's like it's outrageous like it's it's so ridiculous and this is kind of my point where like I think for pickleball I have credibility as like a professional sport like somebody needs to do something way crazier I I think so I think we need a real and I think you're just the guy like we need you to.

You know like I'm not even gonna yeah tell me no tell me by the way there are there are certainly uh more interesting scandalous stories that are happening under the surface that we're all sitting here right now we don't want to talk about on this podcast and they're there don't look at me.

Tim what are your thoughts on those see this is this is how this is how picklepot is the number one rated uh podcast there's they don't hold back no I mean I I do think ah dude this is so bad I'm not going there it's it's like uh you know there's there's times commenters feel free to go there yeah that's right that's right I.

Think that's right but there are times where you know personal life stuff should say personal but there's the idea that does Donna thing was a scandal was like laughable to me so that's all I have to say and you guys were Charmin and needed to be called out all right Fair yeah good opportunity to come on the podcast and call us out.

Perfect what else do we suck at well I think you're owing six so you're not that great in pickleball uh all right you're there my team sucks no argument Thomas isn't great my record's better than yours and you had Riley Newman on your team so that hurt well listen only two of us in the room.

Have ever uh played Pro men's doubles so wrong wrong they're wrong wrong [__] I have uh yeah my first ever Pro match I'm like looking at the drum like please somebody easy Riley Riley Newman Tyson McGuffin absolutely hammered where I played with Scott golden yeah we got crushed it was just how'd you do in the backdraw.

Um we I actually almost won uh a match to 50. I almost won a match to 15. that's not yeah we lost 59 in the backdraw who'd you play I have her I have two pro wins okay so for those who don't know Tim played with Riley in Daytona what was that a couple weeks before Major League pickleball I think Riley had what.

Like somebody drop out last minute yeah so Matt couldn't play and he didn't want to to bail his mix partner and so we started to my knowledge by the way he called me everyone makes it like this is my idea this was Riley's idea so he uh he called all the other Pros or like the reasonable Pros nobody wanted to bail her partner last minute.

He's like okay at this point I'm getting like a pretty like random 5-0 why don't I just play with you Tim we'll have some fun like have a good time and it'll be like a good story and like yeah and you know I did promise him like Courtside Maps tickets if you want to match like you know I give him some incentives to make it worth his while.

But uh yeah I mean and it was it was fun for me like I'm terrible at pickleball my current my duper is like a three nine right now so I'm not very good I don't have any racket Sports yeah it was a 42 and then just decayed for some reason but anyway yeah same I uh yeah so the thing is like.

I thought it was an interesting experiment almost for me because I didn't even talk about draft strategy later I had this idea that like in in mixed doubles which is essentially what Riley and I were playing that the the left side male determines who wins way more than the right side female and this you know like who should you.

Draw first Benner and Elite like this is kind of the operative question in drafting is like who dictate determines winning more the male or the female and there's like two schools of thoughts one is like well the female is usually the lower duper the weaker link and they get targeted they hit more balls therefore they're the one who determines winning.

More often on the other side it's like well the guy takes up 70 of the Court they tend to have more of the winners like they kind of dictate the pace of play like just because the females are hitting a lot more dinks like the important shots the men are hitting and so I was like okay I had this idea like Riley with a three five could still.

Do pretty well in a pro tournament because of his core coverage and how dominant he is so it was almost like a little bit of an experiment for that and we we got big old our first match last our first game we lost 11-0 would you play uh it's like two random guys I don't know their names they were pretty good though like I actually think.

They like beat a couple other teams that you can look it up they were pretty good we're gonna look it up yeah gotta sign in tournament yeah so we lost 11-0 and it was like so fast like I think like we served first and then they got 11 in a row or something like that it was really quick and the thing to me is I knew obviously I was going to.

Be targeted but my thought my problem was gonna be like the speed that like they were just like driving and speeding up every ball of me that was not it at all like I I think I got back probably every speed up in that match except like one or two it was a dinking that was impossible like first of all in three five four level like.

There's almost no dinking like usually it's like one or two dinks and someone speeds up or someone makes an error you usually don't even get to the kitchen line in like amateur pickleball so I had like very little thinking practice that certainly like never drilled it and so what they would do is like I would handle the drive I would handle whatever.

Like the first like couple volleys and then uh we'd get in a dink rally and they would always dink it to me and I could maybe get one dink over like by the second or third it was just too high like the difference between Pro pickleball and amateur pickleball it's not how hard the drives are or how hard the serves are it really is the caliber.

Of the dinking which I did not appreciate until I was actually in a pro match like I couldn't hit one or two dinks and without like Riley taking like he just got one off the face because it was just too high and and actually I thought my dinks were like okay for which they are for a 4-0 game for pro game like they were just annihilating my.

Dinks so I'm I'm gonna ask the question not to be a but seriously yeah like do you think Riley would have been better off without himself yeah for sure so like could you have this could you have like well no it was because uh like the serving in return like the returning yeah no but I think he covered as much Court as he possibly could like the.

Balls he didn't hit he would have like I was like one foot off the court essentially right which is kind of like what I told him to do like dude I'm not here to like assert myself like I'm here to like to like try to get a win like whatever if I just sit on this island I need popcorn and I can now come in a podcast and brag about wins especially.

Like to Richie or like Caitlyn or some other owners who like tend to beat me when we play wreck games like if I could be like hey I have a winning Pro men's doubles like that's worth it forever so I was like Riley do not like feel bad about taking balls or whatever and he was playing hard like he like I think Riley like he always plays pretty hard.

Like he doesn't really stand back so so whatever we lost 11-0 and then the next game we're up like seven two and I was like okay we figured it out like we've got it like I was like we're gonna make run on this thing like we're gonna like win a few games and then I think they run off like not in a row it's like 11-7 back job we lost.

Uh 15 nine but again we were up like nine seven or something so yeah I mean it's pretty fun like I couldn't oh that was Johnny Goldberg he played yeah Goldberg yeah because you could tell he didn't want to be there he had no interest I was like all right we're gonna win this one like this guy's like not even trying and then I got close it.

Was like you know or eight eight or something and it was like they just took over but um I couldn't hop in the middle of an NFL game or an MLB game and actually like have a few points right like it was kind of cool to to do that in pickleball gotcha that's fun dude that's uh I wonder who the ideal player is I think.

He would almost just need a somebody like a a Dylan Fraser who's a good singles player and you need somebody who can really win some hands exchanges yeah so like I thought he was the perfect guy I mean I think he can't create super well off of the forehand you know what it was it was uh I mean Riley I think he's clearly the second best male player.

But his put away power like there were times where there were balls they're like okay the point's over like Ryan's gonna put it away like he got one shoulder high and he wasn't putting him away and then like it invariably one comes back and now like I have to hit it like whatever like a reset or something it's like now they're back in the point.

Or I'm like dude probably you should have put that one away Riley what the hell are you doing but I mean he I told him too I'm like dude I don't care how low the dink is to you like if you get a dink speed it up like just and then just try to like go back and forth like Riley just speed up any time you touch it like don't think it.

Back because I know the next thing is coming to me like yeah and so it was it was fine I mean like we got so many points I mean we we were in matches at times so it was good it was a good experiment but I think they've changed the rules down this will never happen again I mean we also exposed the absurdity for everyone well someone had.

To be first but we exposed the absurdity of like the PPA seating system like we're the two seed and I mean it was kind of funny because like the whole weekend like like Jay and Andre like every time I saw them like like Jay was like smiling and all happy Riley's like why are you so happy bro he's like because I'm on your side of.

The draw and like I know like I have the easiest path and then of course they lose to you and you and DJ it's like gotta take care of business bro but no I mean it was it was a fun it was a fun event mte is a rapidly growing two ounce supplement and drink that supports Peak Performance and feeling good the right way pyro blazing excessive.

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That's all caps the dink one five and that'll give you guys 15 off your first order that's code the dink 15 at getmte.com all right you you uh you mentioned them PPA relationship with MLP so when you see that right now what do you kind of see as far as uh moving forward with that so I mean all right again I'm in like.

Like inveterate MLP partisan right I'm not an unbiased part It's actually kind of funny when Connor was on the other week with you and he said to you he was like he thought you were more of like an MLP sympathizer in my eyes you've always been like a PPA loyalist I told him this I said everybody thinks I'm a loyalist.

For you no no I think it means you're doing a good job like when I was trying to set up at a meeting with Connor that one time I was like I'll go through Thomas like he's best friends with Connor you know it's like he's totally in Connor's pocket and then Connor came on and like oh you're not like you know it was I think the means as a media.

Member you're doing your job very good very well so in terms of MLP PPA it's like I've made this analogy people don't really like it but it's like we're in a little bit of like a ceasefire almost like a cold war we're like we each are kind of circling the other and we're you know theoretically it's it's USA and.

Russia on friendly terms you know right after World War II But like everyone knows they're not really unfriendly terms and uh I think this is an exactly a big secret and it's you know it's really a direction of like okay so I mean let me just be philosophical for a moment and you know as someone who started you know a.

Business yourself like this is something I think about a lot it's like if this if one League or the other is going to win who who should be bet on right I think PPA may be raising money and it's there's a chance to invest in the PPI too but it's like end of the day it's Steve [__] and Tom Dundon right and I have this View.

That like like interested people watch obsessed people change the world right and Tom Dunn has Carla the the the Carolina Hurricanes he has carvana which like the stock price is like struggling he's got just like 300 million lawsuit right and then he has the PPA so like just in his business portfolio PPA is probably his.

Fourth priority Steve Kuhn as you guys know is obsessed the second he wakes up to the second he goes to bed the man is thinking about pickleball and I think you know determination matters more than Talent like we all know people who are very talented who never achieve anything I don't know any truly.

Determined person who's never achieved anything right so like on that alone like look both guys are smart both guys are rich both guys have wealthy influential powerful friends right end of the day like Steve [__] is obsessed and like when I meet with someone I'm considering investing in a company like when you know we talked before I invest.

In the Dink and then you sent the money back like the the trait that is most important to me is is almost the hardest to describe and it's like this this like fire in the eyes this kind of like this this ferocity of speech that is like a physical manifestation of like how serious they are about the mission Steve.

[__] has that like like nobody I've ever described in my life I think has that when they're talking about a subject more than Steve [__] and when you're like a startup of the dink again like the uh like the odds of you going from if you get it right this thing will be worth hundreds of millions of dollars potentially right the odds of you going.

From zero from launch to liquidity like like launch to exit without some like catastrophic [__] happening in the middle like those odds are zero like there's that never happens right like like you can't get 100 million dollars just because you want it you have to endure a lot of pain and my thing is I'm going to come back to it I'm like well.

Who do I think is like willing to like die like like they're so committed to the cause that they will like die on The Sword for this and I come back to Steve Kuhn and it's like you know there there are times where there will be really demoralizing stuff like that's just the nature of startups.

And and business and like Steve [__] I think is like he's all in he's obsessed so when I talk PPA versus MLP I have to start with [__] and Dundon and it's not like I'm no done dinner with anything personally against him but it's just he's not as obsessed with this as Steve Kunis so that's where I am now in terms of like the actual product.

I mean I think MLP has a clearly a better format we have first of all rally scoring which like we can do the rally scoring discussion if you want it has the team format it has a draft it has ownerships it has way more compelling story lines the PPA at the moment it's sort of the the Ben and Annelise show and they've like really leaned into that.

And I think that's how like they're going to grow the sport I'm skeptical of that model I think I think it's you know basically 20 25 events that are just like carbon copies of each other just in different cities and there's not really a compelling reason to watch and by the way like the Daytona one where I played with Riley that was my first time.

Attending it I was walking around I'm like wait this is it like this is like a snooze Fest compared to MLP like this is so boring I can't see this ever exploding and taking off the way I can MLP so yeah I mean in terms of like the product like I just think you know MLP if Pro pickleball is ever going to be viable it will be the MLP but why right.

Because like if you look at tennis or golf it's all it's almost all the individual stuff or in tennis's case doubles and everybody loves the Ryder Cup in golf but the Ryder Cup happens once a year the Laver cup happens once a year in tennis Davis Cup happens every single year in tennis and it's a joke nobody cares about Davis Cup sure so.

Like why is why is this racket sport going to follow a team model and not the more individual model like golf or tennis I mean at 10 and obviously those are two examples of sports like where it has been successful I think if you're starting a sport from scratch like don't look at it as like mini tennis or it's like just another.

Racket sport like we're beginning we're starting a support from scratch I think this is a mistake we make a lot of times like Noah Reuben like he had some critiques and whatever like he made some ridiculous comments too but one critique I think is legit it's like stop trying to be a mini tennis and I think that's right if you're going to start a sport.

From scratch what is a higher probability of exploding and creating public interest it's a team-based sport now of course there's some chance an individual tour League can work but I think like if you're evaluating this like kind of the the balance of evidence like generally team sports are way more popular look at I can name a ton you.

Know cross country or wrestling or all these other individual sports figure skating which nobody watches right so it's like in general people are more inclined to watch team sports yeah I'm not saying I did yeah no I mean this is something we talk about like because remember last year MLP did flirt with going to.

We're like we have gold with what we have and right I mean you're a huge proponent of like tinkering and experimenting and so am I I'm like go to a PPA event go to an MLP event you tell me which one you think is is gonna gain more traction like which has a higher chance of exploiting the.

Public's eye I think over like over the when the sport matures is there space for both there's no other sport where there is both that are that are like on an equal playing field yeah so I don't think there is I think what I would like to see is the two work together more and so I think like the next step eventually one will probably have to go away but I.

Think you can have a period where it's successful in both are making money but what you need is you need fewer PBA events you need something like 10 MLP events and 10 PPA events and I think those 10 PPA events can be a lot better and rather than being the carbon copy boring thing it is right now you have you know we do one in Arizona that's.

Like the the Phoenix Open like worth like really Rowdy like you know like this crazy environment right there for that yeah then you do one like Miami like F1 is coming up right you do one in Miami and it's like you you know you link that in with like Steven Ross and the Dolphins and all like the Miami crew right and you make it like this big.

Miami like it's on the beach right then you do on in the Hamptons for like the US Open over the summer stuff like that where like each PPA event is like very distinct and unique and it has its own character and personality versus we're gonna go to Charleston and then Houston and then here and it's like the exact same thing like other than a slightly.

Different background the event's identical I think that's the interesting part of a PPA and MLP deal right now because again when you look at these other sports each other sport like like tennis every tournament has its own tournament director that's running that tournament all year long Like pickleball's Us open.

Right it's going on right now it has you know it has its flaws but it has its character right it's it's its own very much its own thing and has its own reputation and I wonder if you lose that when the same people are running you almost have to make it cookie cutter when you're running 26 of your own events or alternatively you farm out.

Every one of your events to a local tournament director another perfect example in pickleball is beer City open it was under the app's umbrella this year it's gonna be kind of with the PPA or PPA players are going to be allowed to play and when you have those local people on the ground that's how you can give an event character yeah yeah no I.

Totally agree I totally agree and and I think there's there are too many PBA events and basically in told Ben or Annalee kind of like forced the issue I think you know right now the PPI seems to operate the model and it's it's interesting because whenever you ask them a question you're like well why.

Don't you switch to Rally scoring and they're like well the players don't like it like really you surveyed all 50 players or you ask Ben and Anna Lee right and I think and generally if you're like you know do you want to play 25 events or do you want to play 10 events here in the 10 MLPs like vast majority players I.

I believe would say the latter and so yeah I think it's your point like if you're running an event every single weekend just for efficiency sake you make a cookie cutter but I don't think that's actually gonna grow the sport but I think they're in a position right now where those events are too crucial to the.

Bottom line is that yeah let me see how they could depart from that right now unless they were to go in and raise money I mean obviously I don't know what their balance sheet looks like right but I mean I guess my point is like if you do 10 events and do them really well and huge like you you do all these these.

Like you know kind of crossover events like the Miami F1 and you have 10 000 people there rather than 1500 people like you could make enough money I mean because I don't think well they initially used to do all the amateur tournaments concurrently with the pro tournaments because they want the amateurs to go and watch the pro game.

And Conor said to you or he said somewhere else I saw that like no we asked him we said yeah is there a world where they kind of separate and I think you can still run all your amateur tournaments you want but I think I think there's a chance you get less is more with with the pro events this is kind of my view.

Gotcha um and then also like if you have your team in fewer locations that's also efficient right so you're gonna be in 10 locations over the course of the Year versus running something cookie cutter but being at 26 plus whatever amount of of Futures tournaments they're running as.

Well yeah so you mentioned it what do you think of obviously we know you like rally scoring but you know what does the what's the what do you think the hold up is for overall pickleball implementing that and yeah how do you think it changes with the reason data why why do we still think that rally scoring is the.

Is the the future yeah so I think that that article by Bennett real close that's like in my eyes that ended the argument it ended the debate because it dispelled some of the myths so the biggest myths and I would always ask people I'm like what's the strongest argument like one time I'm at dinner with Colin Johns like what's.

The strongest argument in favor of shout out scoring death and people would say all this stuff like well it helps to Underdog way too much because of the way the freeze works or like it um people say it changes the strategy it changes the strategy but the funny thing is then you say well this make you more aggressive or less aggressive different.

Pros have different answers right and uh so so I think there's a bunch of myths and until someone went and actually collected all the data and looked at it objectively and by the way Ben he had previously said he he on Twitter he bought into a lot of the myths he'd been like yeah it's actually much better for underdogs and all this stuff but it's.

More exciting so basically like this article which I can synthesize in like a minute he basically looked at it and he's like okay uh the average number of uh rallies of points is the exact same so to win an MLP game to 21 or PPI sat out game to 11. it's on average it's like 41 points okay so in general like that kind of.

Tells you that it's going to be identical right because the fewer the points the better it is for underdogs like if we play a game to one that really helps the underdog right like if I play the Golden State Warriors in a basketball game to two I have a chance of winning if we played a game to a thousand I'd never win right so.

So the average number of games is the same now what's interesting is the the volatility is 40 more Inside Out scoring which we all know like you go to the park to play a game some games take 10 minutes and some games take an hour this is really bad for TV it's bad for scheduling like you and Ben were talking last week like when someone comes up in.

An event asks you hey what time are you playing you have no idea if those Rally's scoring you could tell them MLP we know basically within 10 minutes like the schedule is always like pretty much on time because there's a lot less volatility so uh so that's one um the other one is this idea that like well you know and.

Like none or you know the people have this like I really enjoy the the the aspect of like grinding for side outs and like having to win on your serve and it's like well okay the teams who win an MLP game to 21 win more or less in their serve than the team no it's identical it's MLP teams who win a match win 11 points on average on their serve it's.

The exact same as MLP as PPA right um and then there's there's other stuff like uh how what percent of time when a team gets a game point do they win the match MLP if you get game point if you're first to have a game point you win 91 PPA 91 it's identical and I think like it's actually kind of insane it's really.

Lucky that MLP created something that basically exactly replicates effectively in probability terms identical what side out is with 40 less volatility and much easier to explain to new players you know new app like there's a reason why every event the pickle slam or the bubbly or whatever that's on TV is always rally scoring because some random.

Guy on ESPN they're not going to understand what the hell is 252 mean right it's always like 11 and six that's really easy for someone to understand you get a point every time so I think you have all of these advantages it's better scheduling it's better for TV it's better for gambling it's more predictable it's more like easier for.

New players and there's none of the disadvantages all the arguments against it have been dispelled by looking at the data and I mean I mean what would you say is the strongest single argument against rally scoring really I hear just a lot it changes the strategy but then I've made no I've heard no compelling arguments as to what.

That actually means just it changes the strategy as a blanket turn right for I don't like no at least I know I know and so Jesse Irvin and I had a big debate I really like talking to her because Travis has very strong opinions and she like is not afraid to share them but she also kind of listens and so we were talking about this and I was trying to.

Make the point so it was it was actually I was after MLP Daytona it was me Richie coop Jesse Federico and Dylan like just like getting beers after course like rather scoring comes up and Jesse because she was saying basically well the problem with Travis is he his scoring his style works a lot inside out.

Which is like dry third shot Drive fifth shot Drive seventh not like just drive drive that's fine inside out where you're not gonna lose a point on your serve it doesn't work in rally scoring and she was like kind of frustrated with his his approach and I'm like well you know it's actually the exact same thing right so you're saying like well you.

Don't get penalized in side out scoring if Travis drives it into the net but your penalty is you have less opportunities to score correct in terms of the impact on your probability of winning the match missing a third shot drive inside out or MLP is identical now it it materializes on the scoreboard in a different way and in fact I think the.

MLP way is way more intuitive the other team gets a point how does that materialize inside out well you now forego a chance to score a point and even moved the other team incrementally closer to scoring a point like that's that's that's kind of like just give the other team a point right like that kind of makes sense to the.

Average sports fan and so you haven't changed the probability of winning the match by missing a drive at all so you really shouldn't change your strategy now I am sure Pros do change their strategy but you should that doesn't mean it's right right I mean pro athletes do things that are wrong all the time like how many.

Times you're watching an NBA game that's tie game one second left and they take a three-pointer you're like what a one point or two pointer three-pointer like they all win the game right a three-pointer you make an average 30 percent of time uh two pointer you make fifty percent why would.

You ever take a three like pros do things in all sports that are really like not ideal they're not optimal not maximizing the odds of winning so I believe there are Pros who do change their strategy that doesn't make it rational and and I think uh there are Pros that change their strategy and I mean for forever I've been playing.

Pickleball for a while and I've always heard and just literally never made sense to me like when you're serving you play more aggressive when you're on defense or returning and even even the idea of calling returning playing defense right I think doesn't quite sit well with me yeah I've heard it for forever you play more offensive on when.

You're serving you play more defensive when you're returning and I've always taken the stance that like every single point you just I I try to play the exact same I I try to play if I win 51 of rallies regardless of whether it was serve or return that's a win correct right and I guess at least for me I've had trouble.

At least like under even understanding some of these some of the other arguments because I just don't think they've been made in a compelling way yeah they're not they're not I mean I think there's this idea that like winning on your shirt like teams win 55 of the points that are returning 45 are serve so it's not this that's one.

Out of 20 right it's a five percent difference so it's not like no one ever scores on their shirt like it's actually not that much of a disadvantage at one point that Colin brought up which I think really hurt his argument is like actually paddle technology is making the disadvantage of serving a lot less because you can hit like your shot like.

The drip right that third shot like like the paddles are so good now like that like drive that knives down your feet like well that sort of renders the disadvantage of serving like it's a lot more neutral now so it's more neutral like why are we only counting half the points like just count every point right.

Like I think the argument is losing Effectiveness with uh I mean Thomas like what do you think the best argument against rally scoring is I have I'm totally indifferent on it and even as a PPA you know loyalist yeah I mean I I do I think that I think that piece kind of neutralized the only real argument I would have made which is that it's.

Better packaged for viewership right and in my mind if we're talking about growing the pro game that's the most important thing right what's most optimal for viewership and we don't have a compelling argument that either is well I like playing uh side out scoring more but like that but what like why like what what aspect is that out.

Scoring I'm just used to it yeah so that's always right people human beings don't like change and I think this is Steve's point is that if if we think we're gonna have 50 million people playing in 10 by 20 30 50 million the vast majority of those people haven't started playing yet so you might as well just make the change.

Now so they can learn the better way rather than wait and you know take this patient wait and see approach like let's just change it now it'd be interesting didn't volleyball do the exact same thing they were on side out scoring and now their rally scoring is there a freeze or something I don't know I don't watch no but they changed it for the.

Olympics and it seems fine I mean it's kind of incredible that MLP and this is the thing like so so you know another complaint of Collins was that uh you know it helps The Underdogs which is not true um Steve actually like hired a data center scientist to run Monte Carlo simulation so we input Ben John's on.

Average I'm making up the number slightly he wins something like 58 points when he's receiving 50 when he's serving ballpark something like that okay now let's input that into rally scoring MLP scoring and you're playing against like a League average pro you win 91 of matches he wins 91 of his men's doubles matches.

Currently right so it actually doesn't change it's it's it was actually 90 versus 91 it was like slightly different but he wins 91 of his matches he wins 100 of his matches against League average players his losses are going to be coming against Hit like a Matt and Riley who are far above the average no exactly so you can you can run the Monte.

Carlo Sim and put in the exact so like the point is like okay if he's playing Matt and Riley he might win 53 receiving at 49 like whatever you can put those numbers in and be like okay with these numbers how often do you actually win the match and it's the same so you can Tinker with the numbers however you want okay that's the whole point of a Monte.

Carlo simulation it's like running 10 000 simulations if Ben wins X you know 55 on receiving and 50 on serving like okay against you know against Riley and maybe it's 51.49 or whatever it's like it's the point is that you don't actually impact and the thing is if it ever did like MLP can just tweak the freeze we can make the.

Freeze 17 or 19. if all of a sudden our dogs are winning way too much or not nearly enough and we think all right like we've already done that once we the freeze is great for viewers yeah but it's kind of crazy when you think about it from a sports perspective 100 what other sport is one team so significantly nerfed it would be like in basketball if.

You're up by 10 points with two minutes left you can only score on threes for the rest of the game or something it's it is kind of crazy the fact that one team has two ways that they can score and the other team only has one I think it's like I said awesome for the fans it makes games artificially a little bit closer so it doesn't it doesn't make.

Them artificially closer that's the point I think people thought they did but it actually doesn't they're the when the the team that should win is winning the exact same amount like a team oh well so you're saying across all matches if you take a large enough sample size but in that moment it does help the underdog in that individual of course.

But then they get Frozen at 18 right so it's like this idea like artific like every scoring construct is artificial like there's nothing like that's so pure right like why are two pointers two and three-pointers three like and foul shots are one right it's all artificial but the idea is like when you're saying that it's artificial you're implying that.

Like it's it's disproportionately helping underdogs win matches which it isn't not underdogs necessarily just the team that's behind before before freeze it does while it's unlikely and I I read Ben's report too it's very unlikely to actually win a match having won less points than your opponent but it is possible well it was like one out of.

No it was no it was no not winning less points that's not possible it was winning less points on your serve and I think there's one win less overall points than your opponent Rafa Rafa and I in June of June Austin MLP of 2022 won less points than JW and Travis in our final okay we'll we'll get yeah I mean you.

Have a history of being wrong and getting fact checked in the comments so I look forward to seeing Ben in the comment section here but uh perhaps I I don't know maybe that of course there's some kind of corner case but it's like it is a fringe cases we optimize the scoring system to avoid the one in a million weird French case.

Or to make what's better for TV for gambling for doing player all these kinds of things like again I nothing's perfect I think there are some critiques of value scoring I think the fact that you stand left or right is probably not good for amateur players who should get experience on both sides but like does that outweigh like all these other.

Benefits that we just discussed like not even close so I think the debate is basically over like I uh I'm going to miss the day that I can debate rally Inside Out scoring like I'm gonna I'm gonna be in a wheelchair you know in the old person home in 50 years being like uh like still trying to fight this this debate because it's it's it's something.

That gives me a chance to sharpen my wits the rally were set out like I'm gonna miss it because I think side out is basically on his deathbed it's like probably one all right well side outs on the deathbed convince Thomas and I of the shot clock because we're not convinced so by the way I'm not convinced either.

But the whole idea is like we should be tinkering right like I'm with you let's let's dabble okay so the idea with the shot clock and I can't take credit for this this is mostly Steve kun's idea I know we've kind of like bantered back and forth so essentially again we're trying to propose ways that can make the sport more exciting for viewers and then.

One thing that's really bad for viewership are these really long dink rallies and now I know some pickleball purist nerds really love seeing two people cross-court dang for 60 shots in a row it's generally bad for TV and like it's actually funny that someone else wrote a medium article called uh it was on our.

Final in Columbus the heartaches versus blqk and it's like I watched Major League pickleball so you don't have to and is an interesting perspective of somebody who like didn't know anything about pickleball watch the final and there are some parts they really loved and the one part they didn't understand was dinking and they actually say in the.

Article like I think the players are just resting like I don't know they couldn't figure out how it made any sense I think thinking a little bit is interesting strategically non-stop dink rallies and just seeing who makes the error first is pretty bad for TV so the question is okay.

How do we get rid of this there's some ideas I really liked your idea of widening the net right so now players are less worried about atps like you kind of open up the middle that kind of stuff that's an option you can lower the net so you make it easier to speed up you can shrink the kitchen you can do all those kinds of stuff one other idea.

Is you have a shot clock and the the thinking is okay let's say let's just say for the Sega argument 60 second shot clock the second you serve clock starts now if the point is still going on after a minute like if nobody has won and you have to determine exactly what does it mean to have won a point like is the ball Landing out of bounds or Internet.

Whatever but nobody's won the point within 60 Seconds the serving team wins again this idea that the serving team is a little disadvantaged if they've been able to stretch it out for a minute then like they should be rewarded and it's it's interesting it'd be like it's like you're up at the end of a basketball.

Game and you run out the shot clock so like how does the strategy as a serving team different you have somebody in the crowd say hey like somebody yeah you have like a beep right like a beep at like 30 seconds or the ref says 30 seconds 45 50 55 right and so you'd create these rather than non-stop thinking you'd create a really.

Compelling last 10 seconds where like the serving team is hitting crazy high lobs right and they're receiving teams like well I just got to speed it up you know and it's like you'd create this moment of tension and drama as the clock is expiring versus the two females cross-court dinking and the two males not touching and it's I.

Think it would only probably impact a couple points a game and this is why we would try in like minor league you know maybe it totally ruins the game and it's just non-stop lobbing back and forth and who knows but it's like I think uh yeah if we're not I mean I say this to Steve like if we don't ever make some real changes that we have to roll back then.

We're not taking enough risk right we're not pushing the envelope enough like we should try some stuff that's uh that was stupid like let's let's talk about because you you potentially tank one event and you potentially have something that right is that people love for in perpetuity yeah and but you can tank a mono League event or even just a duper.

14 16 18 in a mile like right like or whatever or just the duper yeah baseball's been doing that type of stuff all the time they the pitch clock and everything was going on through the minor leagues for several years before it got brought up to the to the major leagues so that's the idea and it's not like I uh you know I'm very comfortable.

Being wrong like I was like uh we made a mistake like you know I we were talking about like uh you know like the the the red card system and like the benches and all that stuff like after MLP makes it like in my email I was like yeah like I think we have too much like too many owners and GM's on like on the court and it's like like kind of like looking.

Stupid and amateurish and then I sort of like after Daytona I was like yeah it didn't feel like with the same energy in some of these matches like maybe I was wrong like maybe we should put all the owners and GMS back in the court like it's very pop like I'm I'm perfectly happy to admit when I'm wrong so I I I agree I think I think the.

The problem really in Mesa was where the what was it the the fives were taking like 45 seconds yeah that was my issues piece of play too so I liked the I liked the energy that they had but I like give them a give him a serving shot clock yeah no you can't have Lee Waters coming to court and like coach it's like essentially time out after every point.

But it is pretty great when Anna bright comes out and coaches James ignatowicz are you talking about Jamie clip that pull that off that's a great one pull that up players should be allowed that's only if it's Anna bright an all-time Tropical Chocolate yes it is you know what we're talking about no I haven't seen that one oh this is this is great.

You actually need to clip it like 100 this has got to be the most embarrassing moment of James's career so James is playing doubles with one of them and uh I think it was Jackie ready and he isn't taking up enough of the middle according to to Anna and they're getting like slaughtered by it was your team.

Yeah it was Andre in Georgia it was Andre in Georgia it was like 1906 or something it was 2-1 we're up two on 19-6 in the playoffs like of Columbus their season is over right like they're two points away and so like James had led a couple of balls go through the middle from George's forehand and George has got a.

Really like nasty forehand you can't really tell where it's going and so Anna comes out there and tells James she's got like she's really Animated she comes out there she's like you hit the ball and then she walks over to the middle of the Court she's like you go here James does how did I not see this exactly that the very next Point Georgia.

Right behind him clean winner and I almost lost my by my stuff is you know tropical did the overlay like perfect like oh you know right where he was supposed to be like pretty funny it's probably one of my all-time favorite pickleball Clips definitely yeah it's good um so I've decided for us yes that we're.

Gonna run a wild west pickleball tournament here I like this all of all any any and every proposed rule change definitely shot clock because I want to see some people throwing up skylabs for the last 10 seconds of the point yeah I agree we'll make it happen spencerv obviously legal um paddles.

TBD body bags two points okay that could be a different thing give me my one well how do you define a body bag It's gotta hit it just gotta hit it it's got to make contact with their body it's gonna be above the waist I think doesn't who cares if you get hit in the leg but.

For males being a shots count that's a body bag too for sure but um we'll have to have a specific body bag referee we got one ref watching the kitchen a second ref that just does this the third wrap watches to see whether or not somebody gets back that's good that's good all right we didn't really quite get into to draft.

Strategy and and whatnot but uh we want to go for it or should we should we call it a day what do you think yeah we'll do brief and then we can wrap it all right yeah we can we can always cut out some of the other stuff no so I think draft strategy um really briefly like the thinking is it's a zero-sum game zero growth game right to get wins you have.

To take wins away from other teams it means you have to do something contrarian or different so kind of the first thing I did was like I sort of identified like three areas of conventional wisdom that I thought might be wrong one was that the female is more important and mixed than the male and the other one is that singles really.

Are super important because dream Breakers the third one is that like energy really matters a lot and I kind of thought those three were wrong I thought energy was very overrated like I'm not going to move Rafa or Julian or someone on my board because of energy um I thought singles I was like the dream breaker format is so Random like.

The main determinant of who wins a dream breaker is luck not not singles ability and I thought I think males are actually more important than mixed than females even though they theoretically feel less balls um so that was kind of the strategy that I used to draft and I think now after two events.

I think I'm more sure that I'm right on the male versus female like Ben will almost certainly be the first pick I know he was like kind of being humble but my question you got the number one pick who are you taking no I think Ben and Riley are obviously one of two I think it gets interesting you take JW over that's like analytics that's the.

Interesting one who's the third fourth fifth pick and I think yeah if J dub was more of a mixed beast but like you can take Dylan like maybe ignanovic gets up there they know like there's an argument just a female on the right side doesn't have it's usually shorter won't have the same reach with her backhand that a male on the left side with a longer reach and.

More lateral quickness and his forehand like he'll always be covering more court and so and you see this I think Emily she's like under 500 and mixed with with in in MLP and including she played one of the James I think but it's like she can't assert her will and mixed the same way that Riley or Ben can and no matter how good she is if they're ruthlessly.

Targeting Hayden she can't cover 60 of the Court Ben can cover 80 the court it doesn't matter who like Ben with the last pick the fourth round female will beat Annalee with a fourth round male you know for sure more than half the time so I think that's that's kind of one of the interesting questions and I think I've definitely.

Been proven right on that uh the singles tiebreaker thing who knows you know that's still I think maybe I'm slightly wrong on that I think they're probably slightly more predictive in singles ability than I thought but uh you know and then energy it was like after the first event like oh Rafa and Julian took their teams it's clearly them and then.

This last event you know there's two mute teams like Ben and Dylan right and so it's like I think I'm probably right on the energy I think I'm definitely right on the male female but the you this is the first really the first time there were mute teams in a final first of any right so we play well I guess Ben could be good enough that he's he.

Corrected for it right sure that's the sure but I think you're like there's also the signal noise thing like we'll be a qkk won three tournaments last year was that because Rafa was loud or because they had Paris Todd with the fourth pick right and it's like well yeah sure sure yeah so I I I'm convinced there's a slight element to it what that.

Value is I'm I would be I would bet a lot of money that it doesn't hurt your team to be loud so I think I think it it just amplifies what is already there so if your team is winning you'll probably front run and win by a little bit more if your team is losing and doing poorly being that like energy team actually hurts you because now you're like in the.

Tank and so like I think you actually lose a bit more so I think on average it's probably a wash but yeah I mean maybe you want more data points yeah if you're searching for volatility like maybe you want a team to just like get hot and and catch a run so interesting what do you take with the fourth pick third pick with the third.

Pick see I think I'd be curious whether the Annalee number one overall pick was incorrect or whether they filled in poorly right because I thought that James at the time James is absolutely a top 24 pick right now at the time they priced in his growth yeah and now is in that spot I think they could have potentially gotten.

James they could have potentially gotten James later they could have filled in with somebody potentially better than Hayden yeah I think Hayden is is a great player like so was it just the was it that Anna Lee overall number one was incorrect or that they filled in incorrectly yeah no I mean I agree like there's two parts it's.

Like strategy and then just picking the right players like your team and my team both went male male and neither of us have made the playoffs yet so is that invalidated yeah including one against you but but does that mean the strategy is bad or did we just pick the wrong medals right and it's like who knows but they're.

Teams that have gone female female who are struggling team's gonna female female doing well you know so I think we probably don't know the optimal strategy there's still a lot of just you have to get the players right yeah well the number one thing I was thinking of of females like when you play fantasy football who who are your first picks.

There are a lot of quarterbacks that are going to get you a lot of points the quarterback's gonna score you the most points on a given week but also there's 20 decent quarterbacks right there are five tight ends that's why you'll see a tight end going in first rounds of fantasy football and I think some of the reason why a lot of women.

Were going sooner rather than later was because yeah once you hit that threshold of about the top 15 women there is a pretty decent drop-off there I don't know I think it'll be really fun to watch how this evolves too right when the when a when a full 24 females are really really solid yeah be interesting to see now we don't know.

I mean that's mixes of fun like we're inventing a sport from scratch and so it's a lot of discovery all right cool well Tim thank you very much thanks for popping on yeah thank you you guys can all cheer for the hard-ons they got roll the dice I like it don't feed it to your dog like the last one I gave you Tim gave gave me.

A hard eight hat and it was Murray's favorite hat for 15 minutes until it ended up in the garbage well well I would give you a clean cause hat but too good all right all right thank you guys yeah I'm not gonna lie.

Owner of the SoCal Hard Eights, Tim Parks, joins the PicklePod. Tim’s insights into MLP financials, sports betting and building a sports league are shaping the way the game is played. Tim is willing to debate anyone on the merits of rally scoring and brings a unique take to the conventional wisdom of MLP draft strategy. Quite possibly the best episode yet.

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Show Notes:
0:00 The ‘no due diligence’ era
4:50 Always wanted to be a GM
8:30 The best podcast in pickleball
15:25 The billion dollar businesses surrounding pickleball
22:10 Tim invests in The Dink
26:07 How MLP can build a moat
33:32 Let’s talk about gambling
42:32 Extranalities and the Paragon of virtue
48:30 Tim’s first pro pickleball experience
56:33 The cold war between PPA and MLP
1:07:43 Dispelling the myths about rally scoring
1:17:04 The Monte Carlo simulation
1:21:34 Convince me to add the shot clock
1:24:23 Coach Anna Bright allowed on court